Floundering
I'm confused, and feeling stuck. Allow me to quote from Yancey's spectacular "Reaching for the Invisible God" to express the reason:
"I know my relationship with God will not exactly parallel my relationship with human beings, and in some ways it will radically differ. God is infinite, intangible, and invisible. If I may use such language, we humans have little sympathy for the problems that must confront a Being who desires to relate to us. Baron von Hugel drew the analogy of a man's relations with a dog. 'Our dogs know us, and love us thus most really, yet they doubtless know us only vividly, not clearly; we evidently strain their minds after a while - they then like to get away amongst servants and children; and, indeed, they love altogether to escape from human company...And yet, how wonderful! Dogs thus require their fellow-dogs, the shallow and clear, but they also require us, the deep and dim; they require indeed what they can grasp... The source and object of religion, if religion be true and its object be real, cannot, indeed, be as clear to me even as I am to my dog.' The parallel was generous to us. An infinite God relating to human beings presents far more of a challenge than a man relating to his dog - perhaps a man communicating with a wood tick is a closer analogy.
"Communications between such unequal creatures will inevitably cause confusion and disappointment on both sides. What we humans want out of a relationship may well run at cross-purposes with what God wants. We want God to be like us: tangible, material, perciptible (hence the long history of idolatry)....
"Apart from the Incarnation and rare epiphanies, however, God shows little interest in corresponding on our level... Rather, God seeks from us correspondence in a spiritual realm and seems more interested in other kinds of growth: justice, mercy, peace, grace, and love...
"We are profoundly different, God and I, which explains why friendship is not the primary model used in the Bible to describe our relationship. Worship is."
* * *
I feel a sort of despair when I think about that. What hope is there for such a relationship? Insofar as I understand Him (which is not very far), I love God dearly, devotedly, affectionately. Yet it seems as if, even prior to the barrier of sin, there is such a vast gulf between us that we can never have the kind of relationship that I feel a need for, that I understand as love.
On the one hand, I like Yancey's point that our relationship is described in the Bible as one of worship first and foremost. This is something we have lost sight of in the Western church. Yet on the other hand, my humanity yearns for something more tangible.
Is it just pride, that makes me seek something like equality with God? Is that the reason I long to be on intimate terms with Him? Is it, perhaps, because I resent being compared to a wood tick? But why did He make us this way anyway? And having made us this way, why does He not condescend to our level more, but expect us to aspire to His when we are unable to?
I know, I KNOW I'm thinking far too small. I know the answers, even. I know His ways are far above my ways, and it is folly to think of correcting Him (see Job 9:12 below). I know I ought to be grateful that He withdraws His presence so much, because it is an expression of His love, in that He doesn't impose Himself upon us but lets us choose freely, and withholds also His right of exercising judgement over us. It's hard, though, to really feel grateful, when it's beyond matters of choosing Him freely or otherwise, and has passed into the stage where I have chosen Him and have asked, begged, cried out to know Him in my life, to be aware of His presence. And yet He does not seem to come to me (Job 9:11 below).
I sound like a petulant child, I know. No doubt this feeling of unfairness will pass eventually (me being as moody as I am), and I'll be able to see from God's perspective again. I can do so now, in fact, if I choose, but I am still rebellious at heart. I deserve nothing but scolding for my sulk. And I suppose I ought to thank Him for His gentleness with me, rather than go making demands on Him, for 'He's not a tame lion' after all. Is it really wrong to feel like this?
Feel free to comment. I don't mind if you tell me off; it's good for me.
Scripture for the day: Psalm 143:5 I spread out my hands to you; my soul thirsts for you, like a parched land. Answer me quickly, O Lord; my spirit fails.
Please excuse me if I seem melodramatic. But what's the point beating about the bush with these things? And I'm in good company:
Job 9
1 Then Job replied:
2 "Indeed, I know that this is true.
But how can a mortal be righteous before God?
3 Though one wished to dispute with him,
he could not answer him one time out of a thousand.
4 His wisdom is profound, his power is vast.
Who has resisted him and come out unscathed?
5 He moves mountains without their knowing it
and overturns them in his anger.
6 He shakes the earth from its place
and makes its pillars tremble.
7 He speaks to the sun and it does not shine;
he seals off the light of the stars.
8 He alone stretches out the heavens
and treads on the waves of the sea.
9 He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion,
the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.
10 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
11 When he passes me, I cannot see him;
when he goes by, I cannot perceive him.
12 If he snatches away, who can stop him?
Who can say to him, 'What are you doing?'
13 God does not restrain his anger;
even the cohorts of Rahab cowered at his feet.
14 "How then can I dispute with him?
How can I find words to argue with him?
15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him;
I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.
16 Even if I summoned him and he responded,
I do not believe he would give me a hearing.
17 He would crush me with a storm
and multiply my wounds for no reason.
18 He would not let me regain my breath
but would overwhelm me with misery.
19 If it is a matter of strength, he is mighty!
And if it is a matter of justice, who will summon him?
20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me;
if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
21 "Although I am blameless,
I have no concern for myself;
I despise my own life.
22 It is all the same; that is why I say,
'He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.'
23 When a scourge brings sudden death,
he mocks the despair of the innocent.
24 When a land falls into the hands of the wicked,
he blindfolds its judges.
If it is not he, then who is it?
25 "My days are swifter than a runner;
they fly away without a glimpse of joy.
26 They skim past like boats of papyrus,
like eagles swooping down on their prey.
27 If I say, 'I will forget my complaint,
I will change my expression, and smile,'
28 I still dread all my sufferings,
for I know you will not hold me innocent.
29 Since I am already found guilty,
why should I struggle in vain?
30 Even if I washed myself with soap
and my hands with washing soda,
31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
so that even my clothes would detest me.
32 "He is not a man like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.
33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us,
to lay his hand upon us both,
34 someone to remove God's rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.
35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.
[I don't profess to all these feelings but parts of it seemed appropriate, and I thought I'd leave the hard bits in too]
"I know my relationship with God will not exactly parallel my relationship with human beings, and in some ways it will radically differ. God is infinite, intangible, and invisible. If I may use such language, we humans have little sympathy for the problems that must confront a Being who desires to relate to us. Baron von Hugel drew the analogy of a man's relations with a dog. 'Our dogs know us, and love us thus most really, yet they doubtless know us only vividly, not clearly; we evidently strain their minds after a while - they then like to get away amongst servants and children; and, indeed, they love altogether to escape from human company...And yet, how wonderful! Dogs thus require their fellow-dogs, the shallow and clear, but they also require us, the deep and dim; they require indeed what they can grasp... The source and object of religion, if religion be true and its object be real, cannot, indeed, be as clear to me even as I am to my dog.' The parallel was generous to us. An infinite God relating to human beings presents far more of a challenge than a man relating to his dog - perhaps a man communicating with a wood tick is a closer analogy.
"Communications between such unequal creatures will inevitably cause confusion and disappointment on both sides. What we humans want out of a relationship may well run at cross-purposes with what God wants. We want God to be like us: tangible, material, perciptible (hence the long history of idolatry)....
"Apart from the Incarnation and rare epiphanies, however, God shows little interest in corresponding on our level... Rather, God seeks from us correspondence in a spiritual realm and seems more interested in other kinds of growth: justice, mercy, peace, grace, and love...
"We are profoundly different, God and I, which explains why friendship is not the primary model used in the Bible to describe our relationship. Worship is."
* * *
I feel a sort of despair when I think about that. What hope is there for such a relationship? Insofar as I understand Him (which is not very far), I love God dearly, devotedly, affectionately. Yet it seems as if, even prior to the barrier of sin, there is such a vast gulf between us that we can never have the kind of relationship that I feel a need for, that I understand as love.
On the one hand, I like Yancey's point that our relationship is described in the Bible as one of worship first and foremost. This is something we have lost sight of in the Western church. Yet on the other hand, my humanity yearns for something more tangible.
Is it just pride, that makes me seek something like equality with God? Is that the reason I long to be on intimate terms with Him? Is it, perhaps, because I resent being compared to a wood tick? But why did He make us this way anyway? And having made us this way, why does He not condescend to our level more, but expect us to aspire to His when we are unable to?
I know, I KNOW I'm thinking far too small. I know the answers, even. I know His ways are far above my ways, and it is folly to think of correcting Him (see Job 9:12 below). I know I ought to be grateful that He withdraws His presence so much, because it is an expression of His love, in that He doesn't impose Himself upon us but lets us choose freely, and withholds also His right of exercising judgement over us. It's hard, though, to really feel grateful, when it's beyond matters of choosing Him freely or otherwise, and has passed into the stage where I have chosen Him and have asked, begged, cried out to know Him in my life, to be aware of His presence. And yet He does not seem to come to me (Job 9:11 below).
I sound like a petulant child, I know. No doubt this feeling of unfairness will pass eventually (me being as moody as I am), and I'll be able to see from God's perspective again. I can do so now, in fact, if I choose, but I am still rebellious at heart. I deserve nothing but scolding for my sulk. And I suppose I ought to thank Him for His gentleness with me, rather than go making demands on Him, for 'He's not a tame lion' after all. Is it really wrong to feel like this?
Feel free to comment. I don't mind if you tell me off; it's good for me.
Scripture for the day: Psalm 143:5 I spread out my hands to you; my soul thirsts for you, like a parched land. Answer me quickly, O Lord; my spirit fails.
Please excuse me if I seem melodramatic. But what's the point beating about the bush with these things? And I'm in good company:
Job 9
1 Then Job replied:
2 "Indeed, I know that this is true.
But how can a mortal be righteous before God?
3 Though one wished to dispute with him,
he could not answer him one time out of a thousand.
4 His wisdom is profound, his power is vast.
Who has resisted him and come out unscathed?
5 He moves mountains without their knowing it
and overturns them in his anger.
6 He shakes the earth from its place
and makes its pillars tremble.
7 He speaks to the sun and it does not shine;
he seals off the light of the stars.
8 He alone stretches out the heavens
and treads on the waves of the sea.
9 He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion,
the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.
10 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
11 When he passes me, I cannot see him;
when he goes by, I cannot perceive him.
12 If he snatches away, who can stop him?
Who can say to him, 'What are you doing?'
13 God does not restrain his anger;
even the cohorts of Rahab cowered at his feet.
14 "How then can I dispute with him?
How can I find words to argue with him?
15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him;
I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.
16 Even if I summoned him and he responded,
I do not believe he would give me a hearing.
17 He would crush me with a storm
and multiply my wounds for no reason.
18 He would not let me regain my breath
but would overwhelm me with misery.
19 If it is a matter of strength, he is mighty!
And if it is a matter of justice, who will summon him?
20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me;
if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
21 "Although I am blameless,
I have no concern for myself;
I despise my own life.
22 It is all the same; that is why I say,
'He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.'
23 When a scourge brings sudden death,
he mocks the despair of the innocent.
24 When a land falls into the hands of the wicked,
he blindfolds its judges.
If it is not he, then who is it?
25 "My days are swifter than a runner;
they fly away without a glimpse of joy.
26 They skim past like boats of papyrus,
like eagles swooping down on their prey.
27 If I say, 'I will forget my complaint,
I will change my expression, and smile,'
28 I still dread all my sufferings,
for I know you will not hold me innocent.
29 Since I am already found guilty,
why should I struggle in vain?
30 Even if I washed myself with soap
and my hands with washing soda,
31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
so that even my clothes would detest me.
32 "He is not a man like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.
33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us,
to lay his hand upon us both,
34 someone to remove God's rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.
35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.
[I don't profess to all these feelings but parts of it seemed appropriate, and I thought I'd leave the hard bits in too]
posted by Kat | 8/24/2004 01:13:00 am
5 Comments:
To me it seems that Christ is the answer to some of those questions. Christ is God and human both divine and limited.
It is christ whom God sent as a human to allow him self to better communicate with us and so we can communicate better with God.
Philippians 2:5-8
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
I personally think that both the analogies are flawed, both the tick and the Dog neither represents the true state of the relationship.
To me it is more that we are children and always will be children, God made us in his own image giving us minds, souls and self awareness, which makes us much closer to God than we are to Dogs or ticks.
Genesis 1:26-27.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Yet we are mortal and weak made imperfect by our own choices and desires we lack the wisdom and power of God as a child lacks the wisdom power knowledge an superior interlect of an adult in the prime of their life. Yet the difference is there that we can not decrease that gap and it will remain that even while our interlect may increase our knowledge and wisdom expand compared to that of god it remains little next to nothing.
God made us and it is God that reaches out to us first and we choose to accept God or turn our backs to him.
As for the Question of wanting to know more of god that makes me think of Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 and that what you want will come in time God, willing which seems likely.
Ecclesiastes
1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.
P'haps a alternative to the dog-owner analogy is the more biblical one of a father-son.
The father is so much greater and powerful than the baby son, however he still lavishes his attention on the baby. And the baby (doesn't really think thoughts like the one we are now, but anyway) just respects the father, relates to him, and loves him in return for what he's done.
I think it is really really really cool that God is so far above us, and that he still relates. I'm not too good at explaining it though.
Yes. Yes, that is it. Feeling better this morning - better about a lot of things in fact - and able to re-inject myself into my more familiar state of contentment and trust in God. I never used to question God like that, only my mind has been messing with me the last couple of months. Things are a bit strange at the moment. Thanks for your comments fellas. That was what I needed to hear. :)
Hey Katherine, good post. And good comments. I would simply add this; that we should be honest with God. Sure, we should always know that He is far greater and more loving than we are, but I think He can work with honesty far more than facade. If I don't understand why God is or isn't doing something I may or may not have asked for, I tell Him. If I'm confused about it, I tell Him. If I'm angry about it, I tell Him. God is big enough to handle our emotions at Him... it is our heart that really matters.
So, I hope that's in so way helpful. And about your earlier post... I don't think people will think you're being selfish or something because you post about your own problems. After all, it's better to talk about your own problems than someone elses. And, we all seem to be posting along similar lines, so I don't think you should worry about it.
Reuben
Oh, and incidentally, I struggle with this most of the time. I find the best way to relate to God is to actually conciously talk to Him and listen to Him, bearing in mind He lives in me in the Holy Spirit. Usually I don't mind feeling confused or stuck about things, so long as I am making the right decisions and use of the things He's given me. I have learned to trust Him in more ways, that He is more than capable of guiding me even when I don't even notice Him doing it... for the Lord guides the steps of the righteous.
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